What's the difference?

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What's the difference?

Postby Ranking Glasses » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:50 am

I'm a big fan of the disco mix 12" singles of the late 70's and I amassed quite a collection of them. Some of the main labels were Joe Gibbs, Errol T, Treasure Isle, etc. Many of these tunes were remakes of earlier songs from the 1960's / 70's on Studio 1, Treasure Isle, etc.

Some examples include:

Loving Pauper - Dobby Dobson (old)
Loving Pauper - Ruddy Thomas & Trinty (new)
How Long Will it Take - Pat Kelly (old)
How Long Will it Take - Pat Kelly & Barnabas (new)
Officially - Lloyd Parks (old)
Officially Lloyd Parks & Ray I (new)
Happy Go Lucky Girl - Paragons (old)
Happy Go Lucky Girl - Wayne Wayde & Prince Pampadoo (new)
Money in my Pocket - Dennis Brown (old)
Money in my Pocket - Dennis Brown & Prince Mohammed (new)

In most cases the old version is slower and sounds jerky and tentative while the newer verson is more up tempo and smooth.
This is a good example of what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxjoBEUhSzc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4FruQGHDiY

Apart from the tempo, what from a musical / technical perspectve makes the newer version sound so different to the older version when they are essentially the same song?
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby 99thfloor » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:50 pm

Ranking Glasses wrote:Apart from the tempo, what from a musical / technical perspectve makes the newer version sound so different to the older version when they are essentially the same song?

The Early Reggae always has the "bubble" in it somehow (which would be what makes it "jerky"), ranging from it being very clearly demarcated by an instrument to it just being subtly implied by the general rhytmic "stew", so you have the "| - ka CHA ka | - ka CHA ka |" feeling going (and which to me is one of the most important things which distiguishes it from the earlier Rocksteady). Later Reggae, in that rhythmical sense, really often went back to the more straight Rocksteady rhythm, so you have more of just a "| - - CHA - | - - CHA - |" demarcation, often combined with something else demarcing all the beats, so the "bubble" feeling is thus removed, if that makes sense.

The funny thing about the "Loving Pauper" example is that in the original no one plays the bubble, it isn't there at all in any instrument, but (to me at least) one still gets the double time "bubble" implied somehow. The later recording doesn't give that feeling.
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Inyaki » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:20 pm

Is like comparing a mobile phone from the 80s to a recent one.

Actually In most cases the old version ( late 60s Rock Steady or Reggae) is faster than the late 70s!
Busier late 70s drum patterns aren't necessarily faster in tempo ( ears can be deceiving). Loving Pauper for example ( and even clearer if compared to the Gregory cut).There is no bubble on either version, original is Rock Steady ( there is on the Gregory cut....to me the best cut and the one most musicians tend to play ). Some 60s tunes can be more 'jerky' if the organ shuffle is loud in the mix, but not always.
The late 70s cover versions were recorded by different musicians, using updated equipment, more clarity and separation more tracks (multitracks ), bigger dynamic range, different instruments and mics, more effects, more in tune instruments, louder drums ( and very different patterns ).... sometimes can't heard much drums on certain 60s tunes apart from the rolls,
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Ranking Glasses » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:25 am

I'm not a musician guys but what you're saying makes sense. In terms of defining "confidence" as well as the flow, I think that drumming plays a key role as you say. Listening carefully, some of the drum patterns are quite complex and brilliant and add a great deal to the overall feel of the song. Ironically, the drumming is so integral to the song in most cases that many people aren't aware of this.
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Mark T » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:16 am

Don't really know the answer to your question RG but I love those discomixes myself and have been collecting them for a while. Those thick slabs of Joe Gibbs vinyl are brilliant and Loving Pauper would be a favourite!
I also love the Pablo 12" discs.
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby lankou » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:37 pm

I can enjoy a number of discomixes that update some 60's classics, however, i don't have the same feeling as yours.
As far as the sound treatment is concerned, those records probably seem more powerful but when it comes to sheer energy, inventiveness and the variety of musical skills displayed by the originators, 60's/early 70's tunes just can't be beaten. Many are more hectic and avoid that plodding effect (due to the dilution of a good idea) too many discomixes end up having on me.
I consider certain Treasure Isle discomixes for Sonia Pottinger as pure heresy. A number of Studio 1 discomixes are totaly overated, imho, and i'm very picky when it comes to buying them (not to mention the silly prices a number of them sell for now, given there seems to be some sort of trend going on!).
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Peacemakeya » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:44 pm

Tide go up and tide go down and thru the years we have renaissance eras and dark ages.

A couple of generations ago the term ‘Lady Gaga’ was a direct colloquialism for “the woman vomits”

But on the serious side, the mystery of how the inspiration come into the music is an age old question for lovers, roots & otherwise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9fIbhyACU8

this email composed of 100% organic recycled electrons and quantum wave frequencies
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Ranking Glasses » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:43 pm

Oh dear.

Well back on topic, I like both the 60's / early 70's and the late 70's cuts but the late 70's edges it for me. I love the confidence in the music and the flow. I'll never forget when Jah Revolutionary sound almost brought the roof down at Dulwich Baths with this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZShWobTO_c It went on to be a big commercial hit.

And the older version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbn0TETYlhQ
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby guillaumebougard » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:34 am

_______________________________________________________________________
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Inyaki » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:17 am

Sometimes I prefer the originals ( 66-72), sometimes I prefer the late 70s / early 80s cuts......but mostly I take elements I like from both. Because of my ''professional deformation'' (which is a literal translation that might not make sense in english) I tend to listen to music as a variable and non-finished (or at least changeable) piece of work.
What to someone is an heresy can be a masterpiece to someone else.
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Mark T » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:06 pm

Isn't that a long winded way of saying we all have different taste in music Inyaki?

Funny that Okay Fred would be so big in a dance as it seemed like a bit of a novelty hit at the time - but it is a great rhythm with a nice vocal (not very profound lyrically but you could make that charge against a lot of reggae).
Mark T
Last edited by Mark T on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Ranking Glasses » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:52 pm

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Re: What's the difference?

Postby jb welda » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:31 am

Dry Up Your Tears: I have always preferred the later, channel one version.

But then I think channel one improved on all the tracks they appropriated from studio one and treasure isle. More militant, more biting, better recording technology, all that and sly and Robbie.

one love
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby Ranking Glasses » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:28 am

Yes JB. That's exactly what I was referring to in terms of the difference between the new and the old. That late 70's period where the music sounded brilliant and full of confidence.

I still love the 60's stuff because it was my parent's music but the late 70's edges it for me as I say.
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Re: What's the difference?

Postby soul rebel » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:29 pm

Also, there are two different kinds of these updates.

You have the Studio 1 /Treasure Isle (on High Note, mostly), which takes the original track and overdubs more instuments. Can work, but quite often sounds weird IMO.

Then you have the completely re-recorded updates, like "Money In My Pocket". I guess they were popular cause a good old song got a more contemporary rythm, making it fit in better in the selection at that particular time. Many of these, like the Joe Gibbs ones, are still more audience-friendly in a dance. Sounds less dated.

Of course, there are old tunes which never could be improved upon, take for instance the original vs the late 70s versions of "Slaving".
https://soundcloud.com/millionvibes
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